Comment On The Incidental Expert

My empathies to Hung.... he sounds like a decent guy who deserves better

Been there, done that, bought the tee-shirt. I feel your pain.

CAPTCHA: wigwam. In a world without Windoze...

The real WTF here is that the company didn't realize that by deciding to use Edward's code to "save face" it cost them even more to maintain and update a program that wasn't working in the first place to replace one that was working perfectly fine.

CAPTCHA: atari - the good ol' days

"I tell ya, Joe, there's nothing sadder than a sad [Korean] man."

I laughed aloud while crying on the inside.

I feel like Hung pretty much every day lol. I wish I worked in a place where I could scream obscenities though, that would be sweet

So did he finally give up and audition for American Idol? ;)

Sounds like one of my room mates in college. His English was pretty good until he got drunk. Which he did quite often during basketball season, and resulted in him shouting at the refs in Chinese.

*gives Hung a hug*

While I feel Hung's pain (myself currently being in a similar situation), I have to wonder companies don't go after jacknuts like Edward. I mean, doesn't Edward's actions construe fraud?

Sam:

by deciding to use Edward's code to "save face" it cost them even more to maintain and update

Yeah, makes you think about how much "face" is worth to (some) people.

Making a rational decision isn't any easier when it involves unquantifiable emotional components.

diaphanein:

While I feel Hung's pain (myself currently being in a similar situation), I have to wonder companies don't go after jacknuts like Edward. I mean, doesn't Edward's actions construe fraud?

Fraud? Maybe no. If there were not specific terms determining what was truly expected then there is no fraud involved. Did he perform work? Yes. Did he leave all the source at the client as per "work for hire" rules? Yes. Did he fulfill the stated requirements? Maybe.

It's like asking for your house to be painted red and not specifying you want fire engine red and the painter chooses brick red. it is still red, he still performed work, and he did it within the specifications given. Your specifications were not detailed enough to satisfy your requirements but that is not the painters problem.

Saying he should be sued for fraud should actually make you worried. What if this new company determines that, due to the difficulties they can not complete the project within time due to situations that they do not control. Should they be sued? In this case, perhaps not. If Hung can't get the work out to them and they miss a deadline, it is not their fault. Problem is, this one is easier to prove in court and they can get sued and the client wins. Who really pays here? Remember our civil courts are run by people that do not know this business and we techs don't know enough about the law to help our lawers in our own defense.

I don't understand the idiocy of companies that throw tons of money away on expensive consultants only to find their code is crap. Then to "save face" they insist on throwing even more money away in trying to use the crap code. I once took over a project where the code a) didn't work and b) was written to do something completely different than what the business wanted. Yet the IT management insisted on using the broken code that did something different than what the business wanted. I wish I knew how to be stupid enough to get paid the big bucks that management does.

I love the term "Incidental Expert" and I know exactly what it means. There are times, where, since you were once seen in the same room as the documentation, that you become the expert.

Joel:

Sam:

by deciding to use Edward's code to "save face" it cost them even more to maintain and update

Yeah, makes you think about how much "face" is worth to (some) people.

Making a rational decision isn't any easier when it involves unquantifiable emotional components.

I agree, they would have "saved face" more by admitting Edward screwed up and letting the new team go in and do the job right from the beginning. Of course with a more defined set of specs.

I feel his pain. I was hired as a programmer for an ISP startup during "the bubble". I was a programmer / systems administrator by trade and the company was far too big for it's britches. They decided to replace a full functional billing system with portal ( an "enterprise" xml driven biling/accounting/provisioning system ). They decided that I should do the job of making it work. I have no accounting, billing, or provisioning experience and I made this very clear when taking the project. Maybe with training or consultants it might have gone easier, but I had nothing besides the base documentation. The sales reps dissapeared after the sale and management didn't want to spend even more money on this project so I got no external help.

Oh when I say "enterprise" I mean it costs far too much and you have to implement it yourself. It was only a framework.

Anyways they keep throwing more programmers at my team in order to complete the project while I keep asking for training in accounting so I have a damn clue what the difference is between earned and unearned income is when dealing with dialup customers!

Needless to say I left before the project completed.

To save face, they insisted that Tim and his team use Edward's code.

That's the real wtf

As his level of frustration grew, his command of the English language faded.

I find Hung's command of the English language nothing short of masterful.

It doesn't take any effort to learn English plurals, verb tenses, and the difference between "no" and "not". But I have rarely encountered a foreigner so adept at swearing in English. Expletives are such a vital part of our language that sadly they just don't teach in overseas schools.

Probably not in a legal sense, and if there's anyone I'd go after here, it's whoever was responsible for overseeing Edward's work.

Two *YEARS* go by without this being discovered? Probably more than one manager deserves to have been summarily canned over this.

More like Incidental *Racism*...

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

Probably not in a legal sense, and
if there's anyone I'd go after here,
it's whoever was responsible for
overseeing Edward's work.

That was supposed to be in response to the "fraud" comment. Sorry, I haven't quite gotten the hang of how quoting works here.

Jonh Robo:

More like Incidental *Racism*...

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

The bit at the end with the broken-English swearing wouldn't make much sense without that little detail, don't you think?

No, apparently you don't think.

Jonh Robo:

More like Incidental *Racism*...

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

I wouldn't exactly call it racist to point out one's particular place of birth. They also said his command of the English language was fine until he got that frustrated. The joke was at his frustration, not his ancestry.

Jason:

I feel like Hung pretty much every day lol. I wish I worked in a place where I could scream obscenities though, that would be sweet

Remember, this was in the 1990's. (Gross generalizations follow)

Some aspects of workplace behavior have changed since then, especially tolerance for "emotional outbursts" and profanity. You may not have to wear a coat and tie anymore, but you also can't smoke at your desk or scream obscenities at people (unless you're seriously upper management). Drinking at lunch or even in the office is also less acceptable. Where once you would have gotten attention for a problem with your passion for the job, now you get counseling. Passion is passè these days.

Dink:

Probably not in a legal sense, and
if there's anyone I'd go after here,
it's whoever was responsible for
overseeing Edward's work.

That was supposed to be in response to the "fraud" comment. Sorry, I haven't quite gotten the hang of how quoting works here.

Yeah that tripped me up too.
'Reply' replies to the message and the only way to know it is a reply is by the top right corner of the message...
'Quote', on the other hand, does just what this message is doing.

I've been the expert who knew the old guy a couple weeks before he left.

Sadly for me this cost me my job because the new "dictator" decided to remove all the evidence that the predecessor even existed.

Oh yeah that system lasted 2 years before they went back to the way it was before. Sans me and the old leader (who turned out not to be that bad)

Captcha:Sanitarium, AKA the place the dictator belonged.

Your point is great -- except "(doing) the job right" in this case probably meant NOT bringing in the new team. I believe the app was said to work fine already.

So the right move was none.

I can see why "face saving" was chosen. Ah, politics!

((Note I said "I can see" rather than "I agree" or "I approve"))

My officemate is Indian and swears wonderfully. I think there's something about not speaking a particular language as your first language that lets you really cut to the meat of what swearing is all about in that language.

I mean, those of us who have been swearing in English all our lives don't really think about it, do we? We just sort of let loose a stream of expletives. Maybe if you are new to a language, and not constrained by pre-defined word orders and vocabulary, you are freer to create new and interesting turns of phrase.

And nothing gives you more cause to swear than maintaining ridiculous code.

If the joke was at his frustration versus his ancestry then why was it SO important to point out that he was Korean?

Why not just call him a GOOK?

OneMHz:

Jonh Robo:

More like Incidental *Racism*...

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

I wouldn't exactly call it racist to point out one's particular place of birth. They also said his command of the English language was fine until he got that frustrated. The joke was at his frustration, not his ancestry.

If the joke was at his frustration versus his ancestry then why was it SO important to point out that he was Korean?

Why not just call him a GOOK?

Jonh Robo:

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

Don't forget the quoted parts of most articles are translated to a different language (python to VB, for example). So most likely this originally was a French programmer swearing in Korean.

Jonh Robo:

OneMHz:

Jonh Robo:

More like Incidental *Racism*...

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

I wouldn't exactly call it racist to point out one's particular place of birth. They also said his command of the English language was fine until he got that frustrated. The joke was at his frustration, not his ancestry.

If the joke was at his frustration versus his ancestry then why was it SO important to point out that he was Korean?

Why not just call him a GOOK?

troll.

poochner:

Jason:

I feel like Hung pretty much every day lol. I wish I worked in a place where I could scream obscenities though, that would be sweet

Remember, this was in the 1990's. (Gross generalizations follow)

Some aspects of workplace behavior have changed since then, especially tolerance for "emotional outbursts" and profanity. You may not have to wear a coat and tie anymore, but you also can't smoke at your desk or scream obscenities at people (unless you're seriously upper management). Drinking at lunch or even in the office is also less acceptable. Where once you would have gotten attention for a problem with your passion for the job, now you get counseling. Passion is passè these days.

So is using the correct accent on the letter e. ;)

Jonh Robo:

If the joke was at his frustration versus his ancestry then why was it SO important to point out that he was Korean?

Why not just call him a GOOK?

*Sigh* let us talk about racism then shall we.
Racism, the root of its evil, is not really about skin or heritage, but about separating or categorizing people for the purpose of feeling superior to those groups. Think of bullies at school. These people are usually fairly ignorant small minded and for some reason (usually a feeling of inferiority) get off feel higher by pushing others down...

now that that is out of the way.

We're laughing at a guys accent and his further frustration at trying to vent his frustration through a second language that he didn't grow up learning. This is always funny (since his english speech is underdeveloped both in vocabulary and in the mastering of phonetics) in the same way that listening to a child talk is funny. (and before you reply, no I'm not trying to say he's a child or yada yada yada) In no way is this comparative to being racist or judgmental toward that individual.

I have laughed at many friends who've learned english as their second language as well as been laughed at by many mexicans for my butchery of their language. This has never hurt my feelings or yada yada.

Specifing that he is Korean was meant to give the readers the preconcieved idea of his accent that he undoubtedly has.
Specifing that he is a gook on the other hand is using a slang that is reserved for the aformentioned individuals that need to feel superior by pushing other groups down.

So, no, those aren't the same and I don't think this discussion needs to go any further or else it is just going to waste everyone's time and brain cells.

*ok, you got me, I'm bored*

I hope Tim frequently took the poor bastard out for beer.

Strider:

Jonh Robo:

If the joke was at his frustration versus his ancestry then why was it SO important to point out that he was Korean?

Why not just call him a GOOK?

*Sigh* let us talk about racism then shall we.
Racism, the root of its evil, is not really about skin or heritage, but about separating or categorizing people for the purpose of feeling superior to those groups. Think of bullies at school. These people are usually fairly ignorant small minded and for some reason (usually a feeling of inferiority) get off feel higher by pushing others down...

now that that is out of the way.

We're laughing at a guys accent and his further frustration at trying to vent his frustration through a second language that he didn't grow up learning. This is always funny (since his english speech is underdeveloped both in vocabulary and in the mastering of phonetics) in the same way that listening to a child talk is funny. (and before you reply, no I'm not trying to say he's a child or yada yada yada) In no way is this comparative to being racist or judgmental toward that individual.

I have laughed at many friends who've learned english as their second language as well as been laughed at by many mexicans for my butchery of their language. This has never hurt my feelings or yada yada.

Specifing that he is Korean was meant to give the readers the preconcieved idea of his accent that he undoubtedly has.
Specifing that he is a gook on the other hand is using a slang that is reserved for the aformentioned individuals that need to feel superior by pushing other groups down.

So, no, those aren't the same and I don't think this discussion needs to go any further or else it is just going to waste everyone's time and brain cells.

*ok, you got me, I'm bored*

Whites rarely realize when they are being racist.
I could talk about this until I'm blue in the face...

dnm:

poochner:

Jason:

I feel like Hung pretty much every day lol. I wish I worked in a place where I could scream obscenities though, that would be sweet

Remember, this was in the 1990's. (Gross generalizations follow)

Some aspects of workplace behavior have changed since then, especially tolerance for "emotional outbursts" and profanity. You may not have to wear a coat and tie anymore, but you also can't smoke at your desk or scream obscenities at people (unless you're seriously upper management). Drinking at lunch or even in the office is also less acceptable. Where once you would have gotten attention for a problem with your passion for the job, now you get counseling. Passion is passè these days.

So is using the correct accent on the letter e. ;)

Would you fall for it if I said I did it accidently? I never can remember, and my spellchecker that I don't have doesn't pick that up.

95% of all accusations of 'racism' are crap, including this one.

Jonh Robo:

Whites rarely realize when they are being racist.
I could talk about this until I'm blue in the face...

You want to talk about racist? The comment you just made is blatantly racist. You're making a generalization about a people based upon the color of the skin. What an ignorant asshole.

Jonh Robo:

Strider:

Jonh Robo:

If the joke was at his frustration versus his ancestry then why was it SO important to point out that he was Korean?

Why not just call him a GOOK?

*Sigh* let us talk about racism then shall we.
Racism, the root of its evil, is not really about skin or heritage, but about separating or categorizing people for the purpose of feeling superior to those groups. Think of bullies at school. These people are usually fairly ignorant small minded and for some reason (usually a feeling of inferiority) get off feel higher by pushing others down...

now that that is out of the way.

We're laughing at a guys accent and his further frustration at trying to vent his frustration through a second language that he didn't grow up learning. This is always funny (since his english speech is underdeveloped both in vocabulary and in the mastering of phonetics) in the same way that listening to a child talk is funny. (and before you reply, no I'm not trying to say he's a child or yada yada yada) In no way is this comparative to being racist or judgmental toward that individual.

I have laughed at many friends who've learned english as their second language as well as been laughed at by many mexicans for my butchery of their language. This has never hurt my feelings or yada yada.

Specifing that he is Korean was meant to give the readers the preconcieved idea of his accent that he undoubtedly has.
Specifing that he is a gook on the other hand is using a slang that is reserved for the aformentioned individuals that need to feel superior by pushing other groups down.

So, no, those aren't the same and I don't think this discussion needs to go any further or else it is just going to waste everyone's time and brain cells.

*ok, you got me, I'm bored*

Whites rarely realize when they are being racist.
I could talk about this until I'm blue in the face...

The only person here making racists comments that I see is Jonh Robo.

Strider on the other hand actually makes some sense... Bravo...

Management failure, agian.

*again

plizak:

Management failure, agian.

Spell check failure... again!

You see this sort of thing a lot, though.

Something about dev management never understanding the concept of "sunk cost"

You already paid for it. It's broken crap. Forcing your team to use it doesn't make it money well spent.

OneMHz:

Jonh Robo:

More like Incidental *Racism*...

Does it really matter that "Hung" is Korean?
...or for that matter that his mastery of the English language is not up to par?

I wouldn't exactly call it racist to point out one's particular place of birth. They also said his command of the English language was fine until he got that frustrated. The joke was at his frustration, not his ancestry.

I can't wait for the day when there's no such thing as a nation.
When we all speak the same language, and blend into the same color.
When those of us who are a little smarter will get implants to slow our brains, so the others don't feel dumb.
And perhaps those who are faster will have weights on their legs so everyone else can keep up.
There will be no pretty people--but no ugly people either. Plastic surgery can make me look like you, and you look like me.
No one will worry about who prefers blondes, redheads, or brunettes--we can just be all the same.
We won't be able to make fun of each other for being different, and that's a lofty goal.
I can't wait for the day when we're all the same, and achieve true equality.

What a trippy image: When you scroll down it "expands" and when you scroll up it "contracts".

Three month ago I became an Incidental Expert. It was a job no one wanted to do. The previous person was a PhD. Oh yes, she piled higher and deeper. Math was her thing. She expressed everything in math. Probably wouldn't have found the way to the toilette without solving a complex topology formula.

And here I am. An engineer with the usual math training of engineers in a pile of real serious math. Given the choice between this job and being made redundant I took the job.

Management knows she was worth nothing. But she was an expensive PhD, and they don't want to lose face by just dropping her line of work. But they didn't want to pay for another PhD, or provide some training about what this is all about. Serious, I don't know. I see formulas and calculations without having the slightest idea what this should be good for or where and how they are supposed to be used.

And once a week I look at a part of her stuff, decide I don't understand it and throw it away. Then I replace it with something simpler. Usually a comment telling people "you ain't gonna need this" and a dummy implementation of the function, delivering some default result. That takes a few hours and the rest of the week I do web surfing.

I have a bet with myself that I can keep this up for at least a year until someone will complain. And when someone will complain I'll first ask for an explanation of what all this stuff is supposed to be about. Then I'll act extremely surprised and argue that I had been told something completely different.

oldami:

I love the term "Incidental Expert" and I know exactly what it means. There are times, where, since you were once seen in the same room as the documentation, that you become the expert.

Years ago when I worked in product support, we had a new product called "ENS" (pronounced EE-ENN-ESS) that no one had had a chance to learn but which was out in the field already. A call came in and the person who took the call popped up and called to the folks around her, "Does anyone know anything about ENS?" Not wanting to become the Incidental Expert, everyone ducked. One of her colleagues braved the reply, "I don't even know how to spell ENS."

Jojosh_the_Pi:

I can't wait for the day when there's no such thing as a nation.
When we all speak the same language, and blend into the same color.
When those of us who are a little smarter will get implants to slow our brains, so the others don't feel dumb.
And perhaps those who are faster will have weights on their legs so everyone else can keep up.
There will be no pretty people--but no ugly people either. Plastic surgery can make me look like you, and you look like me.
No one will worry about who prefers blondes, redheads, or brunettes--we can just be all the same.
We won't be able to make fun of each other for being different, and that's a lofty goal.
I can't wait for the day when we're all the same, and achieve true equality.

Yeah, but just when you think you've got it worked out, some guy named 'Harrison' comes along and screws it all up.

This is when you update the graphics and UI of the original and call it a rewrite. Learn Turbo Pascal if you have to, it can't be much more painful than the alternative...

And if they ask why it's in Pascal, tell them you're "phasing out" the old code, but you wanted to deliver them something working and on time first.

Honestly, I bet that it was because of the language that they're moving. Everybody knows that HR will only ever be able to find low cost candidates with 10 years of experience in popular, modern languages, like C#.NET ...